Protecting Our Children: How Churches Can Combat the Demand for Human Trafficking with Phuong Marquez from Demand Disruption - Ep. 87

Did you know that the average age of exposure to pornography is just nine years old? Join us as we dive deep into one of the most critical conversations facing families and faith communities today. Micah sits down with Phuong, Associate Director at Demand Disruption, to discuss how churches and parents can protect children from exploitation and break the cycle that fuels human trafficking demand.

In this episode, Phuong shares her expertise on targeting the demand side of trafficking through education, prevention, and community empowerment. Learn practical tools for starting age-appropriate conversations with children, creating safe spaces for families to address these complex topics, and understanding the dangerous landscape kids face online today.

About Our Guest: Phuong Marquez is the Associate Director at Demand Disruption, one of the few organizations dedicated to addressing the demand side of human trafficking. She works to enhance church partnerships and implement educational workshops that empower communities to combat exploitation through prevention and awareness.

Resources Mentioned:

• Demand Disruption: demanddisruption.org
• For general questions: info@demanddisruption.org
• To reach Phuong directly: impact@demanddisruption.org
• Disruption University learning platform: https://disruptionu.demanddisruption.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:24

Welcome back to the Elijah Rising Podcast. So Fong, tell us a little bit about your role. Tell us about what Demand Disruption does. Who are you guys and what is the work that you do? Yeah. Forrest, I just want to say thank you for having me. I think we're now like the most visited guests on the Amazing Podcast between Joe and myself. But I'm so excited to be able just to be here and have this conversation. I'm now the Associate Director, very recently, the Associate Director. Congratulations. to talk about what we talk about as an organization with churches. So I was hired on first to really enhance our church partnerships and be able to implement some of the content and workshops that we do with churches, and then expanded that from churches to kind of like their greater community. And so we say that our organization's one of the few organizations that's focused on demand. And so Joe usually does more of like the intervention where we speak with men on the point of arrest after they've solicited and we have this post-arrest program. Mm-hmm. How do you have those conversations about pornography, technology use? You know, are you prepared to have those conversations? The average age of exposure we share is nine years old. And so, you know, most of the time when I go to a church or I go to a community and I share this fact and I share about the dangers of what's out there, Most of the time, parents say that they're not aware or they don't have tools or they're not really sure how to start that conversation. And so from my heart, I just want to create those safe spaces in our communities to be able to have that conversation because it's usually so shrouded with shame and guilt. And it's difficult for parents to even just... approach talking about this and when we can't even talk about this i think that gives a lot of space for you know the bad players yeah take advantage of the situation you there is so much in that so let's just i want to back up because i want to hit on some of the key points that you made so We'll circle back to the nine years old because I want our listeners to remember. I mean, I'm pretty sure people are like, wait, what? Yeah. The average age of exposure to pornography for a child is nine years old. So circling, let's back up a little bit. So demand disruption specifically targets the buyers, the sex buyers in this case, who are purchasing women, children, or even young men for the purpose of prostitution. And we know that so many in prostitution are in trafficking. So you guys are doing such important work and, you know, when I look across the nation, I don't know a single other, well, that's not true. I know one other organization that's tackling demand. And so the only reason we have trafficking today is because we have so many buyers, right? If there wasn't a demand, we wouldn't have this issue. So our work as, you know, Elijah Rising, serving the survivors, but you guys are so critical to this conversation. And so when you look out across the the landscape of the communities that you're serving, you know, you guys are implanted in Houston, I know you're doing some work elsewhere. And whenever you're looking at across that landscape, and you're thinking to yourself, I'm going to hit, I'm going to specifically target these specific individuals for the purpose of like education and prevention. What You're targeting families. You said you're targeting churches. Are you reaching out to the youth, to young adults, teenagers? What does that look like for you? First, I think it's being able to reach communities and churches where they're at, specifically, because, like I said, we're you know, everyone's kind of on this different trajectory in where they are in learning about all the things that we just talked about, buyers, prostitution, pornography, trafficking. And in order for, you know, a community to even arrive at a place where they can even talk about this, it takes a lot of work, knowledge, awareness, preparedness, and having ministry people leaders or just leaders in your organization community that's in the right place with the right mindset that can make that space ready. And so for me, it's just how do I get this church or this community to that place? Is it And if it is, I'm educating them about, you know, human trafficking, but also like, what does demand look like? What are the dangers that are present when we talk about the demand for human trafficking? Because we think a lot about demand, we tie a lot to pornography. But, you know, our organization, we talked about the escalation part of pornography, where, you when you, it's more than just you going to a video and watching this video. You're on this sales cycle where eventually it's going to lead to that exploitation that happens. But then even like, let's go a little bit backwards, you know, for our kids and our teens, there's dangers all around, like in social media.

SPEAKER_01: 7:02

Our

SPEAKER_00: 7:03

organization did a piece about X and how they were allowing for a short time, you know, pornographic content, but even now they're saying that there's regulators, but, but how are they going to even be able to do that? Right. And so there's dangers all around. And so how can we go in there and we prepare not just the families, but also the youth as well, because I truly believe that they were positioned the best to be able to make an impact because, you know, my generation, you know, we, we, you know, when we talk about social media, one of our first, you know, things that we talk about was like MySpace and dial up, right? AOL. But now it's like you go into a phone and then you click on, you know, X number of social media apps and they can talk to literally anyone at any time, anywhere in the world. And so how do we, educate, empower communities to be able to be aware of that and connect them to resources and a network of people that they can feel safe to be able to talk about this with. You made up a really good point in that in order to even have the conversation, you have to create an environment that's conducive to that. And I think just for our listeners to just bring some clarity to that is like how... How many times growing up did we have the sex talk, right? Usually it was like once. It was like once and get it over with. And so now because our kids are like inundated, and I'll let you speak to that a little bit more what that looks like, but just inundated with a hyper-sexualized culture and there's predators online and the whole thing. which again, you're the expert. I'll let you speak to that. But I think it goes back to the point, like we have to create environments where this is normalized and we are talking about it, maybe not day to day, but like on a regular basis. And then our kids, our youth groups, our church leader, like they'll be able to bring up those conversations in a more effective way. So Do you mind speaking a little bit to just the prevalence that you're seeing of like, what are the risks for kids, teens, children, whatever, when they are going online, when they're going on some of these apps? I think we've heard about it a little bit in the media, but if you're not super attuned to that messaging, it might feel a little bit overwhelming. So where do you begin with that? Like equipping your kids, you know, broaching the subject for them. Yeah. I think first that kids, like you were saying, they're already still unindated and I think they're a lot more informed and aware of what's already out there. And so my thing is, you know, parents, like, let's not be afraid to have those conversations because the number one thing that I'll usually hear is that, oh, like my kid's too young. Yeah. Not yet. They're not ready. Uh, But, you know, all of the statistics and data and even, you know, our in the field work, we know that that's not true, right? Like we have, there's so many dangers that are present, not only just for kids being exposed through pornography and developing that addiction, because now by age 15, more than 90% of male students have seen pornography, you know, On the flip side, we have that potential for exploitation and exposure. But then also, too, you know, we have other aspects of it that can build on. And so, you know, it's OnlyFans, you know, just this presence of this hyper-sexualized culture where there's so many ways for our kids to kind of get swept into it without even realizing. And so, you know, parents... don't be afraid to have those conversations because they're already very much aware. Second, be on the lookout, be informed, really learn about what's out there. A lot of times, you know, a community will say, no, not in my neighborhood, not in our home, but statistics are showing that that's not true. And so that's kind of not really like an encouragement, but like a word of advice, right? Like really, really, You know, be prepared. So what tools would you equip parents with? Like when you're having these conversations or these trainings, what do parents need to be watching out for? How can they begin these conversations? Are there tools out there to support them? Like this feels overwhelming, right? Like as a parent of two littles and you're going to be a parent soon. Like I... there are so many challenges that this next generation are facing that we never had to go through. And so it's like a learning curve for us. I aging myself a little bit, but you know, so as parents are listening to this, what tools would you recommend to them? I think a great place to start is just, well, first, you know, parents of littles and like, you know, mentioning again, that, that statistic of the average age of exposure being nine is, Yeah. you trust and being able to pull in those people as well to also reinforce and have those conversations as well. Because, you know, as they get older, as someone who's worked with at-risk youth, teens sometimes probably don't want to listen to their parents because they're like, it's mom and dad. We're talking about, you know, the predator that's in the white man again. But, you know, being able to pull in like Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But no, that couldn't be further from the truth. There's a community out there that's ready to help. And then the second thing we stress a lot in our material is being able to have that empathy, especially for kids whose brains are not developed yet and they might already have an addiction or because of peer pressure in their circles that they've seen things or choosing to consume these things. Like there's a shame aspect of it that they're feeling. And so be this relationship for them where they can feel like they can trust you and talk to you. And that is more than, you know, being able to, you know, it might seem like You know, very intense. You have to like sit down and like have this like conversation after dinner or something like that. But it could be just like, you know, weekly trips to the mall or like going to like, you know, have a pizza on a weeknight. It's those little steps that build trust for kids because, you know, for them personally, It's about the little things. If you care about the little things for them, they'll be able to open up and tell you more about the big things that are going on in their lives. Yeah. If you never broached the subject with them, you know, and now they're, like you said, if they get exposed, it's not even anymore if they get, it's when they get exposed. We know that. So when they get exposed at nine years old or whatever, through maybe a friend or at home or whatever, the parent, by having those conversations prior to that, it normalizes it. Yeah. It creates a place of like, okay, for the child, I don't have to deal with this alone because we know that the pornography, whatever is becoming more graphic, more violent, and it's registering as trauma in their brain. So like, that's a traumatic thing. They need to, You know, somewhere where they can go. So what would you recommend as being kind of that first initiation into this conversation for like what age is a good age? Is it age appropriate? What does that look like? It's about having those conversations and having that preparedness even before that potential exposure happened. you know, at age nine. So between six to eight years old, like how can you start establishing those boundaries? You know, who are those trusted individuals in your life and those boundaries of like who can hold your hand, who can give you a hug and also expectations and boundaries with devices. So as you introduce those devices, you know, at age six to age eight, what What do those expectations look like? What are your rules that you can have in place? And stick to them, you know, because kids are always going to want to push boundaries, right? So how can we stick to them? And then also to who can show you things as well on their devices? Because we can control what devices that they have and what they can see, but we can't. control what others might try to show well or who can even take your picture. The more we can empower kids to be able to have a voice Yeah. Yeah. And how can we have those conversations throughout their whole adolescence? That's so good. So I think perhaps for some of our listeners, if you grew up like I did, and I didn't really get exposed to pornography, maybe a touch here and there, right? But they might be thinking, well, okay, let's say my nine-year-old does see a picture or even a video. It's not so damaging, but could you speak to the potential harms and the risks that we're talking about? Because you and I live in the world of understanding the harms of pornography. I think the majority of the world does not. Bless them. Sometimes I wish we were in a different field, right? But there's so many different... Pornography has changed so much over the last couple decades. Would you speak to a little bit of what are the risks? Even if my child is on the bus and his friend shows him pornography, what does that look like? Yeah. And also, too, like I will say there is this alarming trend, too, of how pornographic content is even targeting kids at such a young age. especially in animation pornography. We're seeing these trends that have come out from a pornographic website that publishes their data. There's some of the top couple of their animation categories are beloved childhood cartoons. I love Pokemon, and I was devastated to see that that was on the list. And so there's already that aspect of... how this industry is targeting our kids. And then two, their brains are, like I say, they're not developed. And so it's actively changing like their brain chemistry and how their brain is reacting to things like this as they consume. And even if it's just one exposure, it can have consequences because their consequences might not look very evident. Like it's like a, like a very straightforward thing, it could be, you know, something like an outburst at home, or it could be like, you know, not wanting to like talk about certain topics or, you know, acting up in a certain way, or even like feeling depressed or feeling anxious about certain things. And so when kids are feeling all these emotions and all these consequences from what they might be exposed to, even if it's just once or twice, there's still potential for it to grow if it's not addressed. Yeah. Do you see that frequently in your work that you've seen, you know, children or teenagers becoming addicted to pornography? So I think about that mostly with adults, you know, like, okay, you made some bad choices and now you're like down this road that you're having a hard time escaping from. Are you seeing that with younger children or teenagers? So more often than not, When I go to a workshop and I'm educating parents and giving them tools and resources to learn about this, there's already a parent there that will share with me that their child is addicted, an elementary age child. And more often than not, that child dies. was exposed and developed this addiction from their peers. And so you have other elementary age children that have gone through this as well. And so that just breaks my heart because I'm this stranger. I'm this person that their church leadership or the community leadership brought in to be able to share about tools and resources, but for them to be able to finally have this space where they feel seen and they feel that other people might have experienced what they've gone through and they're able to share with me that this is something that's happening in their lives. It's a very humbling moment for me and I don't carry that lightly. And so I, you know, I want to, it kind of fuels me, you know, to be able to continue to make those spaces for, you know, those parents to be able to feel safe enough. And I What's encouraging to me at times too, is that sometimes another parent will be there that have gone through this and they'll be like, I've gone through this. This is, you know, what I experienced and this is what helped me through. And so it's just this beautiful place of not only like learning, but also vulnerability, but also like this exchange of like ideas and yeah. So whenever you are coaching your families, um, are the same tools applicable for getting out to breaking out of that addiction for children as they are for adults? Or do you recommend different kind of tools, different handles for each demographic, if you will? Yeah. So I think for parents, um, With kids, it's definitely being able to, like I was saying before, just see them where they're at with what's going on in their world and being able to pull in that network to be able to help the family and also for them to just feel protected and supported in their home environment because ideally, they should feel safe. They should feel protected at home. For adults that are struggling, it's definitely about that one thing. one-on-one relationship, like having that accountability partner, having someone that can meet you in this really dark season and be able to walk with you and tell you like, hey, like this is a part of being, you know, interacting with a very porn prevalent culture. You know, you're not a bad person. You know, I can help you through this season. And so that's what we try to train our volunteers that want to do that one-on-one accountability work with, you know, people that have reached out to us before. We call our volunteers defenders. Yeah, I love that. I think about this one time specifically, we were at presentation sharing about, you know, what we share about. And, you know, a son and dad came up and told us about like, this is their experience. And we have the timeline that we love to refer to at organization. But it just talks about like that correlation between, you know, at age nine, that exposure to age 12, getting a phone, age 15. And, you know, most of your peers, you know, in schools, you know, have been exposed to that. And then 18 to 21, like the normalization of all the things that are, you know, a part of demand in our culture. And more often than not, you know, people in the same family will be able to find themselves on that timeline together. And so even like for me in the work, you know, I can see myself where, you know, this timeline has impacted me. And so there's intersections of that. interacting in a porn-prevalent culture that's impacting and affecting all of us. But definitely, for sure, too, that struggle in the family unit is, more often than not, we'll see that, where it'd be a child and a parent that has struggled, or a parent that has struggled before and have overcome, and then a child being exposed later. Gotcha. So when you're talking about this timeline, I want to deep dive into that because it's such a fascinating and accurate picture of how does somebody... Why are we so concerned about that nine-year-old being exposed or the 15-year-old who's dabbling in pornography? Why should we be so concerned about them? And how does that correlate to the world of trafficking? It still seems very disparate. Can you link those together for us? Yeah. So... We're not saying, of course, like everyone who finds themselves on this timeline ends up At the point of arrest, speaking with one of our volunteers or Joe. Like everyone who's watching pornography doesn't end up becoming a buyer necessarily. Exactly. But a majority of the men that we've spoken to at the point of arrest say that they have this addiction to pornography. So let's kind of even like scale that back. Like in the church and in the community, you know, more than like 60% of pastors say that they have struggled with pornography in the past. So when we think about the leaders in our communities. And then now think about the communities that they're leading. What are those statistics are like? And so it's about having those conversations and having those safe spaces so that a person never starts off at age nine, going on to age 15 and ending up at age 20. Mm-hmm. We like to say that if we're able to change the buyer's heart, we're making a direct impact in ending human trafficking. Right. Absolutely. So in your role, as you're speaking to churches or speaking to congregations, do you see that the church has the power to become a pivotal force in changing this culture of exploitation and hypersexuality? What do you think that that trajectory looks like? Yeah. No, without a doubt. And I've seen it already on our side of the work when you talk about demand and having these spaces to learn and talk about how pornography can impact not only exploitation, human trafficking, but also how it's impacted their families and their relationships. After After these past three years of being able to go to churches all across our city, I've been very blessed more than once to be able to have a family from a previous church or workshop come up to me at an event and go, you know, that experience, learning from you guys, hearing about those tools and resources really helped our family. And now we're all off of social media. And that's just such like an encouragement, even though it is difficult sometimes for us to approach this conversation at churches. But what better place is there to be able to have the conversation, right? Like what better place is there to be able to have a space where we're already doing life together? We're already convening, where we're already, you know, walking in faith, right? Like what better place is there to be able to have those conversations and be equipped and empowered in the first place? And so that's just my heart. in where i am because at times it might be difficult for a church to go uh it's talking about pornography it's talking about sex like i'm not sure we're ready to talk about that yet but i just want to encourage like our church leaders out there like our our parents are desperately yeah wanting to learn more about it and our youth are ready to talk about it too and so i You know, and once you get to that place where you're able to have those conversations, it's going to make such a change. It's going to be making such an impact in how, you know, us anti-trafficking organizations work. are able to do our work. And even so, more than that, like just being able to be equipped, empowered, and then from there being able to mobilize. Not only, you know, being able to volunteer, you know, at, you know, Elijah Rising or other organizations, but also being able to have conversations because what stronger testimony would there be than having a 15 to 18 year old man or woman that's able to go out into the world and tell people, you know, Hey, I don't watch this stuff or, Hey, I'm not going to take part in this stuff because I know what this is leading to. I know how this is impacting me, how it can impact me. And I choose to not take part of this. Yeah. So, We are even seeing that. And we've spoken a lot about churches. We've spoken a lot about the faith community. But we're seeing there's like a movement of young adults rising up that are not from a faith community at all. They're like completely secular. And they're just looking at the physiological behavioral impact of what pornography has done to them. And they're like, this is... I'm not doing this anymore. Right. And they're like leading other people in this. And I'm like, that is, it takes so much backbone. It takes so much courage. Um, but when you have that conviction of, I was harmed by this deeply harmed, um, and they're unwilling to compromise, I think it's a powerful weapon. It's a powerful tool. You can't argue with somebody who has literally survived or overcome pornography addiction. So it can be done. So again, we've talked a lot about the faith community. Obviously, Elijah Rising is a faith-based organization. And I know you've come to some of our prayer meetings, and we've been able to partner in that way. So do you want to speak a little bit to just the role of how your faith shapes the work that you're doing? Because Demand Disruption, correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, you're not a faith-based organization, but you're committed to empowering different communities, different cultures, right? What about you personally? Yeah. No, I want to say thank you for... You know, laying that out for me to be able to answer this because being able to be a part of the community at Lives Rising to pray specifically for, you know, the fight against human trafficking is huge. So powerful. And my journey as a Christian actually coincides very closely in my career in anti-trafficking work. And so it's more or less shaped a lot of how I approach anti-trafficking work. Before I came to Demure and Disruption, I was working with another organization where it was case managing for teen victims. And through those years, I've been able to see just God move in incredible and amazing ways. But then being able to come over to Demand Disruption, people might think, oh, jumping onto this side, how can your faith even be a framework for what you're doing on this side of the world? But actually, it's been very healing just to see how our faith community has just risen up to the occasion. And then for me, just to be able to Be humble in those spaces to listen and to hear how this has impacted so many people. And just at the end of the day, in all of the darkness that we've interacted with, that there's still hope. Yeah. And I've seen that hope in these experiences that I've been able to share today. And so, yeah, that just kind of encourages me as I continue in helping communities out there learn about you know, a porn prevalent culture and how to enact with it, that even though it might seem very, you know, dark and very scary, that there is hope. Yeah, so good. So if you are going to leave our audience with one takeaway, our parents who are listening, maybe people who are grandparents even, but they know littles, they know teenagers, they might know kids in college, what handles or what tools would you want to leave with them? Yeah. Actually, our organization is launching our new learning platform called Disruption University. I love it already. Yeah. We love naming things. And so Disruption University is kind of this passion project of our organization for like the past two years. And we realize, you know, we're a small team. And so it's hard to be able to go and meet the community where they're at. Yeah. As well as that learning curve that you have to have to even, you know, really dive deep into some of these topics. And so we were thinking about how can we make ourselves more available to our community. And so before I, you know, went into work with Demand Disruption, I was a teacher and then recently finished my master's in curriculum. And so being able to take our current content in our workshop and material and put Kind of reshape it in a way for it to be very digestible in these like five minute bite size lessons that people can learn at their own pace. We're going to try to provide a wide range of topics as well. So if you're just joining on there as a parent, you're just wanting to learn more. there's going to be some courses that will be available for you if you are a college student that wants to learn more about, you know, what's really out there as far as like how porn prevalent culture can impact you and what you can do to fight against it. There'll be, you know, courses and lessons for you. Hopefully we'll be able to, you know, provide resources for grandparents. Yeah. You know, um, being able to bring in more people in the community and, and have these lessons that are shaped around what the community means. And so, um, yeah, if, If your listeners are interested, you can email me at impact at demanddisruption.org. I'd love to be able to share with you more about the learning platform and get you signed up. That's awesome. And when do you have a launch date yet? Everything that they put out is exceptional. You guys do the research. You have the firsthand experience. You are literally interacting with buyers on the demand side every week. So it's not just head knowledge. It's not like you looked it up in a book and you're putting it all together. So I highly recommend you guys check that out. Do you mind saying where they can contact you? Is it demanddisruption.org? And then you... Restate your email, just for the record. If you just have general questions, you can email info at demanddisruption.org. To reach me specifically, you can email me at impact at demanddisruption.org. Perfect. Fong, thank you so much for just educating us and pouring out your life in this field. I'm really excited for what the future holds as you've just... come up with these accomplishments. You've got your master's, like all of these things that demand disruption is doing. And you've been such a key part of that. So thank you for being on our show today. Guys, check them out, demanddisruption.org. They're doing incredible work in Houston and beyond. And join us next time for the Elijah Rising podcast.