Elijah Rising
Elijah Rising
Recognizing Coercion: Beyond the P. Diddy Trafficking Case - Ep. 83
In this episode, David and Dawn break down the recent P. Diddy trafficking allegations to explore a crucial but often misunderstood aspect of sex trafficking: coercion. Drawing from their extensive experience in anti-trafficking work, they discuss how traffickers use psychological manipulation, false promises of stardom, and drug-based coercion to exploit victims. Learn why many trafficking victims don't initially identify as such, and how cultural influences and power dynamics play a role in exploitation. This eye-opening conversation challenges common misconceptions about trafficking and provides valuable insights into recognizing the signs of coercion.
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Hey everyone, welcome to the Elijah Rising podcast. On this episode, we're doing a Newsreact video, and so I have my co-host here, don. I'm David and we're going to be tackling a little bit of the P Diddy story. Of course, this is so involved Like every day, I feel like something new comes out so we're going to share a couple of thoughts about it and what I feel like is relevant for us, especially being in the anti-trafficking space, and you know, a lot of people are still new to understanding what sex trafficking is, and so I think this trial is going to really challenge a lot of people's perspectives.
Dawn:It will for sure.
David:And you know, just looking at it, I'm hopeful that most people will be like, yes, this is horrible, this is like sex trafficking, bad. But unfortunately, when you get into the details, people begin to dismiss certain things. And that's really what we want to talk about in this episode. And so just to kind of catch you guys up on what's happening, sean Combs, known as P Diddy a bunch of different names he's a popular rapper, celebrity, a very powerful, influential figure. He's facing two kinds of cases. So one is a criminal case brought by the federal government and then several civil cases brought by individuals, each involving different allegations.
David:So Combs was arrested on criminal charges. The government alleges that he used his business enterprise to conduct criminal activity, including sex trafficking, kidnapping, and then used his power to intimidate victims and cover up the crime. So we remember that federal indictment coming forward. He was arrested and after that event it kind of unlocked this floodgate of more and more people coming forward saying, you know, they knew about these freak off parties that Didi was having. A lot of victims came forward. I think the local attorney representing victims is here in Houston, tony Busby. They had thousands of people come forward and had to utilize the help of local law enforcement to kind of help vet some of the allegations. But it's still like thousands of people were saying they were involved in being trafficked at P Diddy's parties. Involved in being trafficked at P Diddy's parties, drug-based coercion, all types of just crazy things. There's also allegations of minors being involved.
David:I think it was like a nine or a 10-year-old boy who was trying to get into the music industry, and so that plays a big role in this story. But I want to highlight something that p diddy lawyers. He said during one of the trials and he said is it sex trafficking? The question no, not, if everybody wants to be there. And uh, these were the word of words of diddy's lawyer and I feel like this reveals the greatest challenge for us in the anti-trafficking space is helping people understand coercion Right, and if someone wants, why do? Women in the sex industry don't identify as being sex trafficked and they're not able to see the signs. And I know, dawn, you can speak from experience because you do a lot of outreach and you know you're in these places, you're in the sex industry where you're trying to reach girls, and a lot of times they're not able to see the manipulation, the coercion, the brainwashing that's going on behind the scenes.
Dawn:Right. Well, so much of it happened before they even got into a sex trafficking situation. It happened through music, it happened through media, where it basically groomed them into thinking that a certain lifestyle was what they needed to attain. And so by the time they entered into the situation, they think they've arrived and you know, they go along with a lot of it. But then when you bring in the forced drug usage, the physical abuse, the emotional abuse, the psychological manipulation, all of that plays a part into why victims cannot self-identify and why I would say most of America doesn't look at that and say, oh wow, that's trafficking. These people just made choices, because the lines are very blurred, sadly.
David:Yeah, and even I think, when you have someone that's in an industry like a music industry, very powerful individual. That power can be used to exploit people.
Dawn:Yeah.
David:And I think you do a great job of this, of helping especially young people understand the culture. So a lot of this was happening. I mean, this has been happening for years. This isn't like something he did last month.
David:This is years and years and years of these types of parties where people were brought in, drugged, abused, exploited, sold all of that and that happened within a understanding of like, this is just a lifestyle, and I think you're very right when you say that there are songs, there are music, there are parts of our culture that normalize these types of things and maybe even glorify it absolutely. And so what has your experience been?
Dawn:this is just kind of a side topic okay but engaging with young people in regards to, like the music industry, culture and the message that's that's put out to, let's say, the average 14 16 year old well, I can speak from my experience being a teacher, um, how it influenced the way that my students dressed, the way that they spoke, the way that they behaved. And I've taught in a number of schools, from Title I schools, where there was, you know, poverty, to wealthy, you know affluent schools, and they all had the same influences. And you, you know, when you have, I'll never forget I had a student come up to me and try to tell me what neighborhood he lived in and he's like, oh, and he called it the ghetto in. And he's like, oh, and he called it the ghetto. And that was this badge of honor to be a thug.
Dawn:And the home he lived in was probably $180,000 home at the time. So this was 20 years ago, maybe even longer than 20 years ago, and it just made me laugh and I'm like that's not the ghetto, but that's what he wanted to believe, because it elevated him in status for some reason. So, and that was from listening to music and, you know, watching certain movies and TV shows that gave him this ideal life, that was thug culture, and it really just manipulated him into thinking that that's what he was supposed to aspire to. And he was, you know, a smart kid who was underachieving because he thought he wanted something different.
David:Yeah.
Dawn:And so it, you know it affects them. Now, as far as the sex trap Sorry, I said sex.
David:We're trying to not get banned on YouTube y'all.
Dawn:Part of my job is saying that word like hundreds of times a day.
David:It's okay, we'll edit it.
Dawn:Okay, thanks, when we're talking about trafficking. So many of the women we've already said this don't even realize that they're being trafficked because it's all part of this lifestyle. And I have even talked to pimps, to traffickers, who have said man, my job used to be much harder, I don't have to work really hard anymore because these girls are already ready for me wow to just come in and monetize them and, you know, make a lot of money off of them and that is cultural influences that have done that to just so many women, oh, and generational.
Dawn:Absolutely, oh yeah, generational, and it's environment right.
David:So let's talk about coercion, because I think that this is something people don't know, that they don't understand what that means. I think they think of you know, when you're talking about trafficking, they're thinking kidnapping, they're thinking someone's forcing you to go be out on the street, which all of those situations happen. But, one of the most common methods that traffickers use is this term called coercion, and it looks different, like it's psychological, and so it's not clear as day. You know, you often cannot see until you begin to talk with an individual and understand.
Dawn:hey how did?
David:you end up here. What led you here and so I think that's one of the big arguments they're trying to make in this trial is that, hey, everyone wanted to be at these parties. We don't see a big deal. He didn't force anyone. They willingly drank this stuff and did these drugs.
Dawn:Well, yeah, took that, took, you know, drank this stuff and did these drugs. And well, yeah, if you're an upcoming rapper or you're a model, who's you know, aspiring to make it big time, and you know, p diddy or puff daddy, whatever he calls himself invites you to a party saying, hey, this can launch your career, then Most people would probably say, hey, what a good break for me. You know, isn't that the lingo in Hollywood?
David:Oh, I got to catch a break and the gifts and the money Like we see that yeah, in our space and helping people out of trafficking.
Dawn:And him making it easier. It wasn't like he invited them to the party and then said oh hey, you have to find your own way here. No, he sent people for them, made it super easy, paid for everything to get them in a place and he looked at their vulnerabilities. Hey, these people want stardom, these people want fame. I'm going to push them to see what price they're willing to pay for that. Which coercion right there.
David:Yeah, and I mean that's still used. Most pips use that too. I mean they promise modeling careers, music industry careers yes, or even just a great life together.
David:You know, we'll only do this for five years and then we're going to have this amazing life, um, which never happens yeah or rarely happens, and I mean they also will use influence of popular, like I've heard girls say oh yeah, you know, my pimp knew this rapper and they would be at this party together and it just seemed like this person was really legit, like he could really give me a record label, a record deal you know, and so it looks very real. But on the other side of that it's like okay, now you're going to be trafficked and that's not what you signed up for.
Dawn:Right you know.
David:So let's talk about some forms of coercion. Obviously, manipulation and brainwashing are all part of it, and I think Dawn is our excellent researcher, and so she has this book. What is it called? Like Pimpology? Yeah, so they have books about how to brainwash people and manipulate.
Dawn:Yes, yeah, they have a lot of books about it and it breaks it down step by step on how to groom someone, to manipulate them, to absolutely control them, to manipulate them, to absolutely control them. And that's what we see is when the manipulation gets to the point where these women will do anything for this person and they're sacrificing everything, and they just lay it out in black and white and it's there's. You know, even I have spoken with pimps who mentor younger pimps. A lot of times they'll meet in jail and then, when they're released, they're they're basically mentoring them up and hey, these are the right tactics to use to bring girls into your stable.
David:Yeah. Who will stay with you, and yeah, yeah, I actually, when I used to do intervention, I met um this young guy just out of prison and he was being mentored by another.
David:Pimps out there, young guy, maybe 19 years old, yeah, um, so another, another form of coercion drug-based coercion and they were saying that was a big part of these parties where there would be substances either put on the body and y'all. There are some crazy drugs out there, because we have an amazing recovery staff here. They have this massive book called the drug bible and there's like millions of all these different types of drugs that cause, you know, range from like paralysis to hallucination, to blacking out.
David:I mean, it's just, it's crazy, but that's a huge part of coercing someone into selling themselves and we see it on the street. You know there's you know, uh, most of the girls are dealed substances, either to increase performance, to endure, or just to kind of be dissociated from what's happening.
Dawn:Yeah, and it's kind of crazy. Most of the people that I meet out on the streets who are being, you know, prostituted out on the the streets, their pimps will not let them get into heavy drugs, they just let them use the drugs that will take the edge off. Because if you're going to have to sexually service anywhere between 5 and 15 men a day, you have to have something to take the edge off. And and the reason I've talked to pimps and it's also in that pimpology book is that it gets too messy when they get addicted to hardcore drugs and they cannot make as much money off of them because they're just out of it all the time.
Dawn:And so if you think about that, you know, I think a lot of us would like to think oh yeah, these poor girls, they're just drugged, they don't know what's happening. But I think it's a little bit different than that. I think that they have just been so manipulated. They have just been convinced that what they're doing is first of all their own choice, and what they're doing is what they have aspired their whole life to do. And so drugs do play a part, especially, I think, in the initial in the P Diddy. So many of the people were saying they gave me a drink and then I passed out.
Dawn:You know that type of thing, and that's sometimes how it all starts. But as far as keeping them addicted to the drugs, it's from my experience it is just the lighter drugs that they can still function and make a lot of money for their trafficker.
David:And one of the patterns I've seen too is that introduce drugs into it but then introduce a camera like a video, capture it on video and then that's used for blackmail or extortion.
Dawn:Oh yeah, yeah.
David:And so that's why all these like I think I saw something about the New York Post has access to a bunch of these videos. But, that was what Epstein did he recorded videos of people that were, you know, exploiting other people, and we see that like especially in young people that are being groomed. It's you know, meet the Romeo pimp on Instagram. Hey send me a new photo and then from there it's like hey, if you don't come sell yourself, then I'm going to share this photo with all your friends and all your family.
Dawn:Yeah, and even people who don't start out as pimps. But they get some nudes of their girlfriend and they realize, wow, I can profit off of this, I can make a lot of money. And so it just it turns them into a pimp, which is crazy. And that's because it's become normalized in our society and it's, you know, it's just gotten to this you know crazy level where I'm glad it's being exposed. I know that there's a lot of people quaking in their boots right now who are on the you know ditty list of you know if they have recordings of them. I know that there's a lot of people thinking, oh my gosh, if this comes out, I'm ruined.
David:Yeah, you know, yeah, so I guess you know. Final question is do we think the justice system is going to protect the wealthy and the powerful, or is there going to be justice in this?
Dawn:Do you want my honest answer? It would be a pleasant surprise if the victims are the ones who the justice system rules in their favor. It would be a very pleasant surprise. I mean, what has been done with the Epstein list?
David:Nothing, nothing yeah.
Dawn:And so it would be very refreshing to see justice served in this.
David:Yeah, yeah. And you know, I wonder, if you know, survivors have been speaking out on this so much like the real effects of coercion yeah you know, and I and I feel like, in this, with this trial, are we going to listen? Are we going to listen to the voice of survivors who obviously have experiences and right, have lived through it, um, who understand what it's like to be exploited and brainwashed, manipulated, coerced into doing something?
David:And I think that's going to be a challenge for a lot of people, especially when we do awareness. You know we do the Van Tours People are like, well, why don't you just leave? You know, right. And it's like they don't understand because they haven't been in their shoes.
Dawn:And they've been being groomed since they were children, and a lot of them make decisions to allow themselves to be trafficked, if if that's the word you want to use when they were 12, 13 years old, when their brain wasn't even fully developed enough to be able to make that kind of a decision, to be able to look and see ahead and say oh, this is what this is going to mean in two years, five years, ten years. Um, they, just they. They can't even make that decision. Yet they do make the decision because they are coerced into making the decision.
David:Yeah, yeah. Well, man, this was a really deep, hard conversation.
Dawn:Well, it is. And I want to say one more thing it's really going to require Americans to revisit their preconceptions of what prostitution is, what coercion is, because I think we all are familiar with those terms. But when you begin to encounter story after story after story after story, and they're all basically saying the same thing, I think it should cause us to pause and say you know, let's take a deep dive into this so I can better understand this. I think there's going to be people out there saying, well, you know, they wanted to be a model, they chose to go to the Diddy party, and well, you know, that's what you get.
Dawn:But you have to actually take a step back and look deeper into it and look into the coercion aspect of it and to understand it, because our goal in this is to prevent this from happening again. You know, we don't want to see this happen again. And you know, just saying, oh well, that's what happens isn't going to do it. We have to take a different route and say, okay, let's understand coercion so that we can prepare people not to be able to, or to be able to avoid being coerced?
David:Yeah, or spot it. You know like there's so many survivors I've talked to that. It's like man if someone would have told me that I was being trafficked and right. Yeah, explain to me what was happening Like this is one of the main aspects of our program is like, when a lot of the women first come in, it's like they don't even know that they were trafficked or they don't believe that they were trafficked um, and it's only until a couple weeks later we get into the trauma therapy, we get into, uh, just facing what has happened in their past.
David:and then this moment of realization, like I've literally have done video interviews with people who are like talking about trafficking, and mid interview they're like, oh my God, I'm just realizing I was trafficked.
Dawn:Yeah, that happens to me all the time on the street. It takes years to build a relationship and they're like, oh no, I'm not being trafficked, I chose this, I'm not being trafficked. And you just keep loving them, speaking identity over them, and then all of a sudden it's like Miss Dawn, I think you're right, I think I'm being trafficked. And it's like a light bulb goes off and you know it's heartbreaking, but at the same time you're excited because then you can, you know, get them the help that they need.
David:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, guys, there's. I'm sure there's going to be a lot more to the story coming out and we'll try and keep you guys up to date and give our perspective and give our insights. Being in the anti-trafficking space, I think you know this is it's really great that it's being exposed and people are having these conversations, because this is I mean, this is really a crisis. I mean this is really a crisis it's.
Dawn:You know, I was just in Dallas last weekend and just seeing the trafficking there and how, just out in the open, I was like this is crazy that we're in 2024, and this is still just so rampant, so widespread, with all the awareness, with all the you know, online advocates, the voices of survivors, coming forward Like this is really a time for us to wake up, you know? Yeah, well, you say all the awareness because we live in this world, but I get to meet people outside of this world and so many people just don't know.
David:Yeah.
Dawn:They just don't know. So hopefully these types of things are going to.
David:Yeah, so here's how you can help us. You can share this podcast with a couple of people and let them know that you support Elijah Rising, and just share this conversation and say, hey, you know, have you heard about what's happening in the news? Listen to Elijah Rising. They have a lot of great insights. And that would really help us get the word out.
Dawn:Yeah, come on a van tour. Come on one of our van tours so you can learn about what it is. It is, and specifically in houston it'd be great.
David:Yeah, well, thank you guys. Uh, we will catch you on the next podcast.